Feeling a bit bilious today...

Ugh.

I do not feel well.

I hate being sick.

You know what I hate even more than being sick though?

I hate that several people today are going to act like I'm a second-class Christian or that I don't have enough faith in God.

That always happens when I'm sick and I don't like it.

When someone is healed of a sickness it's a miracle.

If it happened to me every time I got sick wouldn't it lack some of it's miraculous nature?

Instead of saying, "It's a miracle, he has been healed!" We would have to say, "It's just like usual, he has been healed."

Kinda loses it's miracle title if you ask me. Maybe they should change the definition of miracle in the bible...the writers were clearly mistaken when they wrote it.

Yeah, I know, I'm a terrible pastor.

Thoughts?

15 waggish utterances thus far...:

Jenny said...

Well, you did ask for thoughts. :) There is actually a difference between a miracle and a healing according to people out here at Bethel. A miracle is when something is recreated or restored. For example, if a leg suddenly grows out that's a miracle. If someone has a cold or a headache, they get healed. My other thoughts include faith does not always have something to do with it and I hope you would tell me if I'm one of those way wrong people spreading that message. Jesus healed all kinds of people who said, "if you are willing..." Lastly, we were never meant to be sick, ever. It's the result of the curse and agreeing with the enemy. Christians should be healthy all the time, that should be the norm. I don't think it would take away the wow factor of the miracle because it's so against our logical thinking that God would heal. I think it's always amazing. I know Bill Johnson still gets amazed. It should be amazing...and the norm though. Jesus healed everyone who came to Him and I think we have to aim for that standard. That said, we're clearly not there yet. We have to learn how to live wisely so we don't get tired from fatigue, we have to learn how to let stuff go after we intercede and pray for people instead of carrying it around, and we have to learn and practice our authority over sicknesses more. It's a learning curve. I believe there is a day coming however, when the healings and miracles will increase even more and it will truly be a sign to non-believers. Until then, crank up some worship music and feel better. :)

Ryan Detzel said...

I suppose the people at Bethel and I would have a different definition for what a miracle is then.

To me, a miracle is simply something that happens under divine influence. It couldn't happen any other way. It is something supernatural, that is, not natural or scientific.

I can't understand how someone can qualify what a miracle entails regarding healing. For me, all healing will always be a miracle.

Verses like Mark 6:5 bring further confusion to this, "He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them."

I think the word except is extremely important in this passage.

1 Corinthians 12:28 is confusing.

I agree that our sickness is cause of the curse on us...the mere fact that we die is not right. It gets fuzzy when it comes to agreeing with the enemy however. I personally do not wake up sick out of nowhere and say to myself "oh I'm not really sick."

I've done this before, tried to believe, believe, believe that I have received healing and then I do something involuntarily...I sneeze. Or I cough. Or I feel a pain, etc...

If I continue to walk around acting as if nothing is wrong with me I am not only still sick, but I am also delusional and incapable of having any outsider take me seriously.

Ryan Allen Doan said...

I hope you feel better soon. Man I can't seem to stay healthy. I keep having problems with my throat. Not as painful as when you were here. Keep praying for that if you could. And we are really having a tough time out here. I would like to call you soon. Love you so much.

Jenny said...

It's funny you point out Mark 6:5. To me, that is the verse that explains the difference. The word except is showing contrast between the miracle and the healing. I think Bill explains it in his one book, but I don't have it here with me. As far as the enemy thing, it's not an easy topic to wrap one's mind around. And, I'm not propsing denial by any means. God uses doctors too, (but let's pray first). I don't fully understand it myself especially when it comes to mild sicknesses such as colds. Some other diseases it's often easy to find the root where we let a lie in and agreed with the enemy. Then again some of the purest people I know have gotten sick with horrible diseases. All I know is that sickness is not from God, Jesus is perfect theology, and so we're meant to live in divine health. :)

Ryan Detzel said...

I am intrigued to find out if there are people out there who claim to walk in "divine health".

I can wrap my mind around that. I can be on board with that...I do desire to meet or hear of real people who experience this divine health though.

Do you know anyone personally who has experienced this for any length of time? I don't mean for a few months or even up to a few years, that could simply be addressed as a healthy streak.

Thanks for the banter!

Jenny said...

I don't know that I can name any. I think there are people aiming for it. I think there are a lot of people though that are only experiencing minor health problems like colds. I'm pretty sure this one cat who came to talk to us has only had a handful of colds in the past 10 years. I don't feel like listening to the whole message though to find it. :) We need to do this bantering in person so we can really hash it out. I love this stuff.

Helen Ann said...

I was actually struggling with this very issue while reading the book "The same kind of different as me". It's a true story and includes the details of a very Godly woman whose faith was unshakable and who died an extremely painful death with cancer. She and all of her loved ones prayed non stop for her and one man held all night vigils. She rallied very briefly and did live longer than expected but really was never healed.

In one interesting part, the cancer patient's prophetic friend (who had prophesied that she would be facing a crisis because she was precious to God and therefore important to the devil) had had a vision of her being chained to her suffering earthly existence by her praying friends. They had to release her to God so that she was free to pass on. Perhaps some literal "what you bind on earth" going on there??

So while reading this I struggled along with the narrator (the woman's husband) as to why she had not been healed. She went to Jesus time and again to be healed but was not. There are so many stories like that - faithful, strong believers who have stood on the promises of healing but who have not seen that healing (well, other than that death could be considered a form of healing).

Is it just that we are in a time of learning and so some will die or not be healed for the divine purpose of teaching us how to get there?

Great topic, Ryan...We'll oil you up and pray over you Wednesday if you aren't better yet!

And I'm glad we get to pick Jenny's brain since she's out there gettin' all learn-ed about these things! :)

Jenny said...

I don't know why some people get sick. Bill Johnson's dad who was a 4th generation pastor died a really gruesome death from cancer. He had thousands of people praying for him and he wasn't healed. Bill's secretary also died of cancer. No one understands it, God certainly doesn't want it to happen. I'm sure a lot of people will be asking questions when they get the chance to ask. What I do know is that what is stolen from us will be redeemed 7 fold. Bethel Church now sees cancer healed on a high level. They're going after a cancer free zone and in a way they received a grace for it because of those who have died from it. Can't deal God a bad hand. :)

As far as that book, I haven't read it. I would question why her friend would give her such a prophecy as under the New Covenant it is meant to strengthen and encourage. Unless her friend was in the office of a prophet it may have just been for her personal prayer time, not to tell her friend.

Binding is a whole other topic. :)

Dan said...

Although I hate theological debate (ok thats a lie) I will go ahead and put my 2 cents in. I will try not to write a 500 word essay here.

A lot of Christians confuse the concepts of positive thinking and faith in God. The fact of the matter is both have the ability to heal you under many circumstances. All healing is not miraculous. Your body naturally heals itself. Doctors can also, with your bodies help, "fix" some problems through the use of drugs and surgery. A miracle is "an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause." The distinction between healing and a miracles is this, a healing can be a type of miracle when it has no natural explanation. This is not merely an effect of telling yourself and others that your not sick. Thats just lying.

Should Christians never be sick? Even the most righteous man of his time, Job, suffered from physical illness. If Christians were to live in divine health than why does the book of James say "Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord." Because this verse is speaking directly to the church, it is therefor contrary to the concept of divine health. The elders wouldn't be praying for healing they would be praying for divine health if divine health were the goal. I will spare you any more of my thoughts though.

Jenny said...

And the debate continues...:) I beleive there are levels of truth and that the covenant of the new testament is a higher truth than the old. Even righteous men of the old testament had to live under the law because Jesus had not come yet. Jesus came and fulfilled the law and is the higher truth. He is perfect theology. Jesus healed all the sick and modeled for us how to pray. Simply because James is telling the church to have people pray for them doesn't mean that there shouldn't be divine health. The elders were probably walking in better health because they were more mature in their walk and James was simply instructing new believers. Jesus came and redeemed all that was given up by Adam including sin and sickness (see Isaiah 53). Bill Johnson has a great sermon on this topic entitled "What part of finished don't you understand?". It may still be on iTunes or you can e-mail me and I would be happy to get you a copy.

Helen Ann said...

All healing is sort of miraculous to some extent...I see life itself as miraculous. God took nothing and made life out of it. The fact that God has equipped our bodies to do its own healing is rather amazing too...I guess those real big interventions from God where there was no earthly hope of healing could be something like super-duper miracles...or Miracles with attitude... :)

Helen Ann said...

Oh, yeah and there's a great book by Ken Blue called "Authority to heal" that tackles a lot of what we're talking about here. The first chapter alone is worth a read. It's called "Clearing the ground of theological hindrances" and examines some of the problems with stuff like Sanctification through sickness, Faith formula and divine determinism. CHECK IT!

Dan said...

Just as a side note, everyone that Jesus healed before his death and resurrection was under the Old Covenant. People are quick to say that Jesus healed everyone who came to him but let us not forget his dear friend Lazarus. Lazarus was so sick that he couldn't make the trip and Jesus just let him die. This story is also pre-New Covenant but I will go ahead and mention it. Jesus let him die so that he could raise him from the dead. You can't get a whole lot more sick than dead. Jesus let Lazarus die. Or what about John 9:1-3 "'As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?' 3'Neither this man nor his parents sinned,' said Jesus, 'but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.'" What exactly is the purpose of 1 Timothy 5:23 "Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses." Wine is certainly not a miraculous fluid. Here is an application of your faith. If it is Christs will for us to live in perfect Divine Health than owning health insurance would be hypocritical and lacking in faith. Not only would it be lacking in faith it would be downright sinful. Do you own health insurance? If so you should cancel it. I don't own any myself.

Jenny said...

I could totally be off base here, but it seems that this discussion is getting a little bit of an agitated tone, which was not my intention. If my comments had that tone I apologize. I do have some comments about your last post, but I think this type of conversation would have been a better in person. Again, I apologize if my tone was anything less than friendly discussion.

DanThoms said...

No problem. I'm not agitated at all and your tone has been nothing but friendly. I just don't think that perfect health is a Biblical principle. I've never seen anyone who possessed it in or out of the Bible, Jesus being the obvious exception. I just want to know what real life application of this looks like.